Where would Jesus park?

My 83-year-old mother has to drive around to find street parking at her San Francisco church (Swedenborgian). How come the Catholics just get to park any old where in the middle of the street while she has to find a legal parking place?

I completely agree. Double parking on Sundays is even allowed on two lane streets like Steiner which makes it very difficult and dangerous for both cars and bikes. I honestly don't understand why this is allowed. I like to attend film festivals. I'd love to just double park my car when I go to a movie theatre, but I have to find a legal place to park. How is this different from attending church?

Agreed! I am offended that church goes get special treatment!

People shouldn't park in bike lanes or obstruct traffic on 2 lane streets, but I have no issue with a lane on Guerrero being used on Sundays. Traffic is very light on Sundays so that really is a better use of the traffic lane. It would be better if this was regulated in someway rather than being ad hoc.

Double parking is dangerous on Guerrero too.

The biker community needs to understand that we all have to live together with each others differences. That is what this City is known for.

Please not there are more problems that need to be resolved with new changes to old patterns. Such as

Some bikers, do not follow the rules of the road, running red lights (almost hitting cars and pedestrians), turning right in an inside lane, whizing by seniors, should be required to tested on the laws.....
"LICENSE TO RIDE". People need to chill and be respectful to one another.

This is not about BIKES this is about illegal parking. I respect peoples differences as long as I get to double park also.

Or as a brilliant alternative, we all could just choose to obey the law and not double park at all.

To me this is city endorsed inequality.

Equal justice under the law.

hubbert,
where are these people going to park? these churches have been here for years. ride your bike on another street for a few hours on sunday.

BJ,
Those people are going to park where the rest of us park when we go to an event in the City. They're going to look for street parking, find a paid parking garage, have someone drop them off, take a cab, or take public transportation. Why should going to church be any different from going out to dinner, seeing a movie, going to a concert, or going shopping?

I almost never ride a bike, but I think the double parking on both Guerrero and Valencia Streets is dangerous. It is offensive to the people who have sacrificed for our country that the First amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America is spit on in the name of parking convenience for a limited few.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/04/us/04bcjames.html

Parking Leeway for Churchgoers Poses Danger for Cyclists
By SCOTT JAMES
Published: June 3, 2010

Quote, "the city still does not ticket double parking during church services — even when congregants block dedicated bike lanes, a violation of the city traffic code that carries a fine of $105"

BJ, when the city adds more bike lanes we'll be happy to ride on other streets.

Double parking is illegal and should be enforced for everybody EVERY DAY. Walk, car pool, park in a public garage, but don't double park anywhere, anytime.

When it comes to illegal double parking during church services, all that appears to have changed is that both the police and parking departments now deny that it is their policy to ignore the law.

But why only church, and why only some churches? If music is my religion, shouldn't I be able to park in the middle of the street to go to concerts? And how come my mom has to park legally at her church, but the Catholics get to block the street?

Today s Saturay. Te Church near Guerrero Street has it members parked in the midldle of Guerrero St. This is bot unfair in that they get free parking, and unsafe for traffic ori there was an emergency and the fire department had to respond nearby.

oh man...and if you think cyclists seem entitled...these people are impossible. the folks who have their church(shack) at Guerrero and 18th are a hazard. Even though Guerrero is inadvisable a a bike lane these people are in the way of everyone. Public transportation people! I hear Jesus is very fond of MUNI.

At the very least this should be regulated and a fee charged. This additional parking causes impacts to the streets and neighborhoods (repaving, potholes, crosswalk painting) that is beyond the City's ability to repair timely and blights the neighborhood without compensation. If the neighborhoods are to provide the public amenity of turning their streets into parking lots, the neighborhoods should receive permit fees that pay for things like improved signage, sidewalk cleaning, landscaping, street tree maintenance, small business assistance funding for local businesses to promote their stores and improve their frontages, and so on.

You know, Mission Loc@l, there's clearly a lot of interest in this outrageous practice, which has a major impact on the streets of the Mission. It sure seems like a story.

If street trees are not allowed within 25' of the property line closest to the intersection for reasons of driver visibility, why are parked SUVs allowed right up into the crosswalk?

Double parking is a serious danger. Parking in the center of the street is an even more serious danger, obstructing views of turning vehicles. such illegally parked vehicles should be cited and towed.

The police and Department of Parking and Traffic claim that they have gotten few requests for enforcement, and will act on them if they get them. That's not true. What happens whenever I try to complain is that SFPD and DPT refuse to accept complaints or enforcement requests. As long as SFPD and DPT refuse to docket complaints or enforcement requests, nothing will change.

So the questions for SFPD and DPT are: (1) What is the proper phone number to call to request ticketing or towing of illegal (church) parkers? (2) If the DPT operator and/or SFPD officer refuses to act, what is the proper point of contact for escalation of the complaint against the officer (for refusal to docket the complaint and for selective non-enforcement) and request for enforcement? (3) What is the proper way to obtain confirmation that the compliant and enforcement request have been docketed? (4) From whom can records of those complaints and enforcement requests, and of what (if any) action has been taken on them, be obtained? (5) Are there copies available of any instructions issued to DPT and/or SFPD officers, instructing them to act on complaint and enforcement requests even if the parking is church-related), so that complainants can show those directives to officers who refuse to accept or acting complaints?

When is Mission Loc@l going to do a story on this? It involves taking on the SFPD AND the Catholics -- someone has to man up.

I agree with CarolineSF--someone needs to take on this issue. And it's not just the Mission or the Catholics--this happens all over the City with churches of all denominations. The Western Addition & NOPA are also hotbeds of Sunday double parking. The Baptist church on Steiner & Oak makes Steiner their own personal parking lot every Sunday.

This is not just an issue on Sundays either, at least in the Mission. There are numerous small 'churches' in the Mission whose patrons regularly double-park at other times - there is one near Folsom and 25th for example, in the evenings when I run.

The only way to legitimize it and charge for it would be to simply create legal parking in those places at certain times, and make them "no parking" zones at other times. But would that conform to safety and traffic-flow standards overall? It seems unlikely.

Obviously it would be impossible to legitimize it while making it parking for specifically for churchgoers.

Full disclosure that I once parked in the Catholics-only zone on Dolores when taking my 16-year-old to get a nostril piercing at Body Manipulations one Sunday (it was her long-wished-for birthday present). Of course that raised the question: What if body art is your religion...?

What about the people who live in those neighborhoods and can't park because people going to church have taken their space? Is this really that big of an issue? I live between two churches, I am on bike, foot and car and have had no issue in my 29 years in San Francisco. Bunch of complainers.

Why does Creativity Explored, the Art Gallery, get free median parking on Dolores during its major donor events?

SFPD, where are you? Hellooo..... ? Shall we stage a call-in to SFPD and DPT this Sunday morning? Parking enforcement number is 553-1631. Then #1 for English and #5 for Enforcement. Let's say 10am this Sunday?

Sunday call in! 10am.

Yeah, can we get something done about this please

Call in program sounds good.

Did anyone call parking enforcement on this today. If so, how was the call handled? Were any tickets given?

I live very near Mission Dolores and I actually have no problem with the Sunday "church" parking. I do have a problem with the people who park along the entire inside lane of traffic on Dolores, from 15th Street to the end of Dolores Park and stay there all day and into the night. I'm surprised the number of people who think they are not doing anything illegally and come back at night to find their cars towed.

I'm surprised how many people think it is okay to to something illegal that endangers others lives and property as long as its done in the name of God.

More info on how to deal with this may be found here: http://sfappeal.com/news/2010/06/does-sf-allow-illegal-church-parking.php

Here is a video showing other exempt folks who do not need to go through the same problems we taxpaying law abider's do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02FHNl9CTJM

More and more here: http://sf.mybikelane.com/ and here: http://sfcitizen.com/blog/2009/05/25/transit-first-goes-out-the-window-every-sunday-in-san-francisco-church-parking/

It is Sunday now, let's take pix and report folks!!

you're going to have to go higher up than MTA/DPT or SFPD on this one.

There is a grandfathered legacy tradition in San Francisco of looking the other way when churchgoers park illegally in San Francisco. This goes way back to the city's pre-summer of love roots in working class and military traditions.

If you really want to change this, put pressure on the supervisors and mayor's office. Call in the media to back you up. But 311/DPT/MTA/SFPD are just going to shrug and hang up the phone when you call to complain -- status quo

You could publicly document the Church Parking by sending photos from a cell phone camera to SF311 by twitter.

Also, if the City continues to discriminated on the basis of religion who they enforce the law on, the courts will have to drop everyone else's tickets who complains about unequal enforcement due to religion.

I am wondering why this died? They still do it every Sunday. No one from the city or the police dept. have moved forward on this that I know of and I am still mad.

I would almost even be happy with an answer I don't agree with as long as it explains the policy in some way because for now it appears to a city condoned illegal activity.

From @SF311 "@benberkowitz Submitted your concerns to DPT -Enforcement on SR#751095. Thank you. ^jr"

Thanks Ben!

For the rest of us, we can track this by browsing over to http://www.sf311.org/index.aspx?page=4 and putting 751095 into the top field and leaving the bottom field blank.

Still open...

311 has this:

San Francisco Case Tracker

Service Request Number 751095
Title complaint
Status Open
Date Opened 10/12/2010 13:41

If you have any additional questions, you can call 311 7 days a week, 24 hours a day at 311(Voice/TTY) toll free. From outside San Francisco, dial (415) 701-2311 (Voice/TTY). TTY direct (415) 701-2323

still open:

San Francisco Case Tracker

Service Request Number

751095

Title

complaint

Status

Open

Date Opened

10/12/2010 13:41

If you have any additional questions, you can call 311 7 days a week, 24 hours a day at 311(Voice/TTY) toll free. From outside San Francisco, dial (415) 701-2311 (Voice/TTY). TTY direct (415) 701-2323

Typical Sunday on Guerrero

Who authorizes these guys? What's with the vests?

More evidence

Guerrero Street southbound, Sunday, February 20, 2011.

I will mark this as closed as soon as it is dealt with.

I went to SF311 to check the status on this and received the following:

San Francisco Case Tracker
Service Request Number 751095
Title complaint
Status Closed
Date Opened 10/12/2010 13:41
If you have any additional questions, you can call 311 7 days a week, 24 hours a day at 311(Voice/TTY) toll free. From outside San Francisco, dial (415) 701-2311 (Voice/TTY). TTY direct (415) 701-2323

Why? No details, no reasons. Just closed it. No feedback? This topic, "ree church parking in the median for churchgoers - all others get tickets" and "Church goers get to break the law and endanger cyclists" was one of the most highly rated issues on SeeClickFix and yet the city has deemed the compaint inconsequential.

Double standards in city government?

Seperation of church and state?

Safety of children less important than FREE parking for lawbreakers? JUST USE THE FOR-PAY CITY LOTS!!!

I tried to park there this morning and one of the guys in the yellow vests told me it was not allowed unless I was going to church. He said I would get towed if I parked there. I was assuming they were authorized by city officials to do this, and/or had paid the city to allow parking on those areas. After doing some research I find that none of this is official. I can understand there is a long tradition for this kind of practices, what's outrageous is that there is someone there controlling if you're going to church or not and threatening no church-goers with being towed. Both morally and legally questionable practice.

CSP, please send your complaint to Ed Reiskin , Scott Wiener , Mission Station , George Gascón , Mariam Morley , Joy Houlihan ,.

I agree. Sunday would be a great day to collect ticket revenue for the city

Seriously, they can use a parking garage like the rest of the tourists. It's not like they live in the hood, or they would walk!

Any hope of resurrecting this? We've called 311 many times regarding this issue (Saturday and Sunday), for Dolores St as well, and always get a curt response from SF MTA: "we're on it ." Are others emailing their local leaders?

Quite a few if these people are shopping on Valencia and not in church.

By the way must we get rid of every tradition? If we can close streets for Sunday Streets..I don't think this is an issue at all.

I can just see grandma in her Sunday's finest on a bike. What about funerals? Should they use a parking lot too? Seriously, with all of the real issues you are really worried about this? Petty stuff in my book.

Just want to see granny park her car in a garage or meter, pay the city a small fee. I am sick of churches getting away without paying their fair share. Either that or give me the same free parking deal they get.

That is not realistic. This all started because there are not a bunch of garages or parking available.

This is a not an issue as a lane of traffic remains open while one lane is used to park.

Did you care when lanes where removed from Valencia and it was converted from four to two lanes? How about Folsom St...same thing?

The church goers leave after service and all if the late night cars still there I would speculate are not at church.

To the person who thinks it would be great to get more revenue why don't we also charge to park at the meters as well on Sundays. We can't have the tourists, as you call them parking for free. Think of the revenue for the city.

It's about two different standards. One for church goers one for the rest. Btw, there is plenty of garage and metered parking available.

As mentioned plenty of those who park there walk down to the shopping area of Valencia.

There is room for everybody to co-exist.

There is not plenty of parking btw....anyone who lives in the area knows this. This is why the tradition started.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Adios

Regardless of tradition, fairness, and civic priorities, the simple fact is that they are violating city parking and traffic codes as they block entire lanes of busy roads and bikeways. At least on Dolores St, the lane is commonly blocked for better parts of Saturday and/or Sunday (i.e., well beyond typical church service durations). It would be nice to have these facts addressed.

I recently spoke with a kind (no sarcasm intended) SF MTA parking supervisor, who explained the whole situation to me. This parking allowance dates back to when parking enforcement was administratively still under SFPD. In those days, the PD would instruct their attendants to not enforce parking on particular streets near certain churches. Evidently, these were informal exceptions negotiated by the local police captains and individual church leaders, and not any kind of official policy. The allowances were grandfathered in when parking enforcement split off from SFPD and joined SF MTA.

According to the supervisor I spoke with, parking attendants are still instructed *not* to ticket at these times and places, and the informal "arrangements" are still managed by the local police captains.
He insisted that the most effective recourse for those who take issue with the parking situation is to contact their local captain. I recently expressed my concern with ours (Captain Robert Moser) in person. I encourage anyone else displeased by the situation to do the same. Contact information for the Mission police station is here: http://sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=819

Thanks.

Sunday Streets violates the laws as well and it is allowed because people enjoy the event.

People are enjoying church as well.

There are more people than you realize contacting civic leaders who are for leaving things just as they are.

I agree there might be people who agree with how the situation is right now. I just see a few fundamental problems with all this: 1) it's against the law to park there, 2) a few indivduals with particular interests come to an agreement to reinforce or not certain areas and hours (which may not be in line with the general interest, 3) not only they favor certain activities but they are exclusive with whoever wants to park there for something other than going to church. I find this both illegal and unconstitutional. If you want to change the way parking works in the city, ir should be done through legislators who should gather opinions, debate, and decide keeping the general interest a priority. Indivdual agreements and discrimination o

While we are talking about laws, what about the tech company commuter buses that use Guerrero which violates the vehicle weight laws?

This benefits an exclusive group which is breaking the law by driving in a restricted street. Should we go after them too?

The Captain at Mission should be dealing with violent crime, prostitution and reckless drivers who use the streets as a racetrack.

Re: Charge on Meters on Sunday? Great! Good idea. Take public transit if you do not want to pay.

Re: Tech company busses, first off this is a red herring, secondly, a bus is mass transit and better than a car.

Re: Sunday Streets, This is a case where it affects everyone the same rather than giving special dispensation to one group.

Re: Police have better things to do? SFMTA hands out parking tickets, not the police. The police have better things to do, LOL.

Re: Funerals, there is a law on the books for them. There is not one for church parking.

end of rant.

So we should ignore the law on the weight restrictions while enforcing the parking? A little bit of hypocrisy.

What about the Bartlett market last night...closed the whole street.

The churches can apply for an ISCOTT permit.

Don't be so angry. It is not personal.

I am going to have to say that I would rather have the Police working on violent crime as well.

If the entire street were blocked that would be different but one lane.

There are thousands of laws ib the books and ut is convenient for you to use some for your cause as we'll as ignore others that benefit your cause.

Instead of making the community better for all you prefer to make it better for yourself.

It's illegal and dangerous. It would be less dangerous if they DID close down the entire block. But parking in the median is a threat to other cars, pedestrians and cyclists.

Wow.....

The tech buses can violate the law.

The Sunday parkers can't?

Interesting.

I've never believed in the power of comment boards to resolve much.

For those of you who do agree that this is a problem that needs to be dealt with, please contact our pertinent community leaders (namely, SFPD captains) and they'll add you to a list. If this list grows big enough, action will eventually be taken - for the benefit of all but a small minority of scofflaws, in my opinion.

Otherwise, trying to convince anyone to change their mind one way or the other through this forum seems futile, I'm afraid.

Sunday double parking is SFMTA's job to enforce, not SFPD. Parking control Officers can be called at 415.553.1632

CLOSED

I guess this is not the correct forum for this kind of issue.

Let it go already.

No..its closed